Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 28 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 903



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Republishing CT materials
Re: Republishing CT materials
Re: Leroy vs. Clif (was Republishing CT materials)
Re: Word copies of MT manuals
Re: Word copies of MT manuals
Word versions of MT: permission granted!
Re: Word versions of MT: permission granted!
Re: Word versions of MT: permission granted!
Re: Word versions of MT: permission granted!
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
RE: 2D Universe
RE: Galactic Coordinates
Re: burgers
Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia
Real life Flywheel Energy stores (AKA HPGs) 
Re: Word versions of MT: permission granted!
Word versions of MT: done
Re: Word versions of MT: permission granted!
RE: Galactic Coordinates (Was RE: Transstellar chronosynchronization)
Re: Real world question
Re: burgers
Re: Word versions of MT: permission granted!
Test
Re: Galactic Coordinates (Was RE: Transstellar chronosynchronization)
Test 2
Re: Real world question 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:18:03 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Republishing CT materials

In a message dated 7/28/99 5:22:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
volker@greimann.de writes:

<< 
 >  Yeah, but if Leroy were still on the list...  :)
 He said the name, he said the name...
 ...stone him!!!
 Volker >>

	Look on the bright side, he could have said Cliff

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 05:26:33 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Republishing CT materials

from: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Republishing CT materials


> Look on the bright side, he could have said Cliff


    Yes, he could have.  May Cliff rest in pieces.

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:36:37 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Leroy vs. Clif (was Republishing CT materials)

Oh dear, is it time now for a "Clif was worse than Leroy, no Leroy was
worse, no I liked Leroy, no Clif had a lot of good points, you moron!"
thread?

Wait a minute.... now where are those unsubscribe directions again?
<rummage, rummage>

:-p

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <AveNelso@aol.com>
>  >  Yeah, but if Leroy were still on the list...  :)
>  He said the name, he said the name...
>  ...stone him!!!
>  Volker >>
>
> Look on the bright side, he could have said Cliff

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:51:46 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Word copies of MT manuals

The Roc wrote:
> 
> Errrr... seeing as you are the one that would be "distributing" the items in
> question... shouldn't it be you who asked Marc?
> 

I did, but got no response. I took that to mean he wasn't interested in giving
me permission.



- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:51:00 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Word copies of MT manuals

Erwin Fritz posted:

> Okay, I need to clarify something here.
>
> I have Word versions of the three MT manuals. I typed them myself, years
> ago, because you can't buy them here in Calgary anymore, my players were
> wearing out the one set of originals I have, and I couldn't afford a
> scanner at the time.
>
> Whenever I mention this to the TML, I get a flood of requests asking for
> copies.

Erwin,

I, along with alot of others, would _love_ to have online copies of the MT
manuals. I've tried scanning them in using a rather decent scanner and the
outcome is still unacceptably bad.

I'd be willing to send any nonsequential pages from each of my MT
manuals as proof I have them. After all, if I get on online copy, I don't
really need the books, right?

Besides, if my books are damaged, then I can't sell them and your having
individual pages from my books won't make you any profit either.

It may be quite a pain for you, though, to keep track of which people are
sending you which pages.

About the only other way this could be worked is for you to sell the
manuals on a CD and give Marc M. a cut. *I'd* pay for it!

Just some thoughts which can be freely ignored...

David

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:07:20 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Word versions of MT: permission granted!

Okay, I received the message below just now from Marc.

I'm only allowed to give away 10 copies of the document. I'm making a list of
requests, starting now. I have Volker Greimann on the list. If there are any
other people who want copies, send me your email address.

I'll be sending them out this weekend as multiple ZIP files, unless there are
strong objections.

There's a condition though: If you notice errata or other errors that I've
missed, please tell me about it so I can correct my copies.



- -------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: Re: Permission for Word.files of MT-rules needed]
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:58:06 EDT
From: FarFuture@aol.com
To: efritz@glja.com

Yes, this is me, Marc Miller of Traveller. I don't weant this to get out of 
hand, but I'm willing to give you permission to distribute up to 10 copies of 
this / these files (in addition to your own and to me). 

Please make sure the file itself says Copyright (c) 1987 (or whatever) Far 
Future Enterprises.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:15:45 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Word versions of MT: permission granted!

>Okay, I received the message below just now from Marc.
>
>I'm only allowed to give away 10 copies of the document. I'm making a list
of
>requests, starting now. I have Volker Greimann on the list. If there are
any
>other people who want copies, send me your email address.


    I would love a copy at legate@futureone.com

    Thank you.

>I'll be sending them out this weekend as multiple ZIP files, unless there
are
>strong objections.


    None from me.

>There's a condition though: If you notice errata or other errors that I've
>missed, please tell me about it so I can correct my copies.


    Will do.

>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: Re: Permission for Word.files of MT-rules needed]
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:58:06 EDT
>From: FarFuture@aolcom
>To: efritz@glja.com
>
>Yes, this is me, Marc Miller of Traveller. I don't weant this to get out of
>hand, but I'm willing to give you permission to distribute up to 10 copies
of
>this / these files (in addition to your own and to me).
>
>Please make sure the file itself says Copyright (c) 1987 (or whatever) Far
>Future Enterprises.
>
>Marc Miller


    Thanks Marc.  This will save my MT books as well.

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:15:45 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Word versions of MT: permission granted!

>Okay, I received the message below just now from Marc.
>
>I'm only allowed to give away 10 copies of the document. I'm making a list
of
>requests, starting now. I have Volker Greimann on the list. If there are
any
>other people who want copies, send me your email address.


    I would love a copy at legate@futureone.com

    Thank you.

>I'll be sending them out this weekend as multiple ZIP files, unless there
are
>strong objections.


    None from me.

>There's a condition though: If you notice errata or other errors that I've
>missed, please tell me about it so I can correct my copies.


    Will do.

>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: Re: Permission for Word.files of MT-rules needed]
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:58:06 EDT
>From: FarFuture@aol.com
>To: efritz@glja.com
>
>Yes, this is me, Marc Miller of Traveller. I don't weant this to get out of
>hand, but I'm willing to give you permission to distribute up to 10 copies
of
>this / these files (in addition to your own and to me).
>
>Please make sure the file itself says Copyright (c) 1987 (or whatever) Far
>Future Enterprises.
>
>Marc Miller


    Thanks Marc.  This will save my MT books as well.

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:48:44 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Word versions of MT: permission granted!

> Okay, I received the message below just now from Marc.
> 
> I'm only allowed to give away 10 copies of the document. I'm making a list of
> requests, starting now. I have Volker Greimann on the list. If there are any
> other people who want copies, send me your email address.

I am not sure I understand the requirements, does it matter I have never
bought MT stuff? All I have bought are LBB's and the compiled "Traveller
Book" and T4 M:0. I would love to sign up for some MT though.
>
> There's a condition though: If you notice errata or other errors that I've
> missed, please tell me about it so I can correct my copies.
>

I can do proof-reading, but I am not familiar with MT to notice errata
specific to the setting. Unless it is a contradiction in the material at
hand.

BZA
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:52:57 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

David J. Golden writes:

>The original discussion, at least as I perceived it, was a rehash of

>the old handwave about why Traveller maps are 2D, in that they are

>supposed to be a representation of a 2D jumpspace corresponding to 3D

>realspace.


	The oldest post that I could find was on 19 July:

>Thing writes:

><<snipped>

>I often envision jumpspace as a hyperspace topology that you can lie
the

>normal 3 dimensional (3+?) on the surface of so that every point in 
the

>universe corresponds with a point on the surface of jumpspace in much
>the same way as you can wrap a two dimensional surface around a 
sphere.

><<snipped>


David continues:

>BTW, I'm not in any way trying to shoot down how anybody runs things

>In Their Traveller Universe. I'm just yakkin about why I don't do it

>that way and exploring the idea a bit further.


	No problem, it's just the focus of the string shifting somewhat.


Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:57:44 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: 2D Universe

Steve Fellows writes:
<snipped>
>The map is a 2D representation, because, well, its easier to show it as
>2D (just like its easier to show the solar system as 2d on a sheet of
>paper, but all the planets do not lie exactly in the same plane.

	I have no doubt that the Traveller maps were writen in 2D for
	ease of printing and use, and I'm cool with that (although I
	have tinkered with 3D fixes, they're not really that hard). On
	the other hand, representing the solar system on a 2D map is
	much more accurate, as the deviations off the plane are tiny
	compared to travel along the plane.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:01:06 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Galactic Coordinates

Charles Collin writes:
>IIRC, Galactic North would be towards the observer as you look at a trav
>map.  It's towards one end of the axis about which the galaxy rotates, so
>it's orthogonal to the coreward/rimward and spinward/trailing directions.

	Is there a canon reference for this? IIRC Traveller maps have
	Spinward to the right and Coreward to the top, and this implies 
	to me that the observer is South of the map.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:07:25 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: burgers

Glenn St-Germain writes:
>>Err....Volker.....what's a metric pound?
>500 grams, or half a kilo. Close enough to the Imperial pound, which
>is 454 grams. My mother is originally from central Europe, and grew
>up with the metric system -- but in her neck of the woods, they did
>use "pound" (500 grams) as a unit of measurement.

	Just to pick a nit (this is Traveller, after all): one pound is
	about 4.45 Newtons (force), while 500 grams is about 29.1 Slugs
	(mass).

:-)
Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:08:58 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia

SD Mooney wrote:

> Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de> writes:
>
> >A small german Company (never heard of them before or after this product)
> >reprinted the GDW alien modules+alien realms into one big hardcover.
> >Its absolutely beautifully made, but the price tag is a great obstacle,
> >as it costs about 250 Marks (~140 USD) without shipping.
> >It can still be ordered from Fantasy Encounter (http://www.fanen.de)
>
> It is actually cheaper (in the UK) to buy it like this than buy all the
> books separately second hand, unless you get a really good deal.
>
> Dom

I got a wonderfully preserved copy of this directly from Mr. Miller last year.

#107 of 200.  Autographed by Mr. Miller.

:-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:53:55 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Real life Flywheel Energy stores (AKA HPGs) 

Hi all,

I've mentioned that I used to work on technology similar to HPGs before now
when we've been on a number of threads. The website below represents an
evolution of the technology I was working on. There's not a lot there, but
it may be interesting.

http://www.urenco.com/flycylinder/index.htm

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:56:18 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Word versions of MT: permission granted!

Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:
> 
> I am not sure I understand the requirements, does it matter I have never
> bought MT stuff? All I have bought are LBB's and the compiled "Traveller
> Book" and T4 M:0 I would love to sign up for some MT though.

You're the 11th person, so I can't send it to you. Sorry.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:57:31 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Word versions of MT: done

I now have the ten people that I'm allowed to send the files to. Those people
have been told that they're on my list.

Thanks
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:42:30 -0400
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Word versions of MT: permission granted!

I would like one of these copies.

Question though, is it just the three main books or the entire MT series?

I'll take whatever you've got.

Email russcm@zoomnet.net

At 08:07 AM 7/28/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Okay, I received the message below just now from Marc.
>
>I'm only allowed to give away 10 copies of the document. I'm making a list of
>requests, starting now. I have Volker Greimann on the list. If there are any
>other people who want copies, send me your email address.
>
>I'll be sending them out this weekend as multiple ZIP files, unless there are
>strong objections.
>
>There's a condition though: If you notice errata or other errors that I've
>missed, please tell me about it so I can correct my copies.
>
>
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: Re: Permission for Word.files of MT-rules needed]
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:58:06 EDT
>From: FarFuture@aol.com
>To: efritz@glja.com
>
>Yes, this is me, Marc Miller of Traveller. I don't weant this to get out of 
>hand, but I'm willing to give you permission to distribute up to 10 copies
of 
>this / these files (in addition to your own and to me). 
>
>Please make sure the file itself says Copyright (c) 1987 (or whatever) Far 
>Future Enterprises.
>
>Marc Miller
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:22:20 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: Galactic Coordinates (Was RE: Transstellar chronosynchronization)

On Tuesday, July 27, 1999 2:02 PM
Charles Collin said,

> IIRC, Galactic North would be towards the observer as you look at a trav
> map.  It's towards one end of the axis about which the galaxy rotates, so
> it's orthogonal to the coreward/rimward and spinward/trailing
> directions.

North, being a directional, should refer to a consistent point.  If it is on
the axis of galactic rotation, how far from the midpoint of the galactic
plane would it be?  Projected out to the axis's intersection of a sphere
encapsulating the galaxy?  The term Galactic North would seem to say it is
only relative to our galaxy and not the universe in general.

> I like the "jump space is 2D" solution.  I think the canon references to
> "real" directions pose a problem for this, but not a huge one.  Directions
> only have to be roughly correspondent on a large scale (The sleeper ships
> from Sol) and in certain isolated local cases (The Darrian Te Zuyez). Yes,
> it's arbitrary and overly convenient, but so are a lot of things about
> jump space (time unit is a week, distance is a parsec, etc.).

I think jumpspace would have to be 4D+, or 5D+ if you count time as a fourth
dimension in our universe.  The relationship of jumpspace to
realspace/normal space would therefor be akin to the relationship of 3D to
2D, so a 2D map might be a good reference for travel between systems via
jumpspace.  The effects of the gravity wells represented by the major bodies
displayed on these maps might have some sort of nulling out factor for the
difference in the Z coordinate since it would be small relative to the
overall gravitic field of the galaxy which is largely planar being a disk.

This would mean that standard jump drive settings, calibrations, and
equations might still be accurate in areas of sparse density such as the
rift and other such Sargasso's as they would still be in the main gravitic
body of the galaxy, but would be wildly inaccurate for the space between
galaxies or in a globular galaxy.

just thinking out loud.

G.D.D.
======
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please  -Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:27:17 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Real world question

>Funny.  I don't remember you from the last SDN meeting...
>
>Bradley


Oh, which government are you from? I hang out with the guys in Saville Row
suits with handlebar moustaches and furled umbrellas.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:30:00 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: burgers

>>Err....Volker.....what's a metric pound?
>The metric pound weighs exactly 500 grams, or was it 250 grams, damn, you
>got me confused now, and its late.
>I think it was 250...
>I am vaguely aware that in the US, a pound is slightly less than that.


I see. Ta.

Metric Pound = 500g
Imperial Pound = 454g (ish)

NB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:34:28 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Word versions of MT: permission granted!

>>Okay, I received the message below just now from Marc.
>>
>>I'm only allowed to give away 10 copies of the document. I'm making a list
>of
>>requests, starting now. I have Volker Greimann on the list. If there are
>any
>>other people who want copies, send me your email address.



I'd like to ask you for a copy, if there are still places left.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:32:59 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Test

This sucker live yet??

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:46:38 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Galactic Coordinates (Was RE: Transstellar chronosynchronization)

>North, being a directional, should refer to a consistent point.  If it is
on


Not necessarily. In fact, it's easier to just to define a direction as
parallel to a stated vector. The vector we're using here is the normal to
the galactic plane.

>The term Galactic North would seem to say it is
>only relative to our galaxy and not the universe in general.


Well, yes. Each galaxy will have their own North (well, spirals will anyway.
Globular galaxies will need a different system defining.)

NB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:39:53 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Test 2

This sucker live yet?

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:43:32 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: Real world question 

> > > >>>To survive the Van Allen Belts
> > > >
> > > >>To *survive*? How radioactive do these people think the Van Allen belt is?
> > > >
> > > > These people believe that JFK Jr. was killed by a blackhole flung out from
> > > > brookhaven National Labs on Hillary Clinton's orders.
> > >
> > > Funny, I don't recall hearing about any nuclear range explosions (a
> > > small black hole decaying) or unusual tidak events (a larger black hole
> > > *not* decaying).
> > 
> > Maybe you were looking the wrong direction...
> 
> Maybe he was just looking at the little red light <FLASH>

Not me, I was wearing sunglasses.  <grin>

BTW, you pick up the hot sheets today yet?

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #903
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